Â鶹ӰÊÓ

Politics

    • Rosenberg says foreign interference inquiry should be 'on the table': Read the full interview

    Share

    Morris Rosenberg — a former public servant who authored the report released this week on attempts to interfere in the 2021 federal election — says the option of a public inquiry should be “on the table.â€

    Rosenberg told CTV’s Question Period host Vassy Kapelos in an interview airing Sunday, his report is not the final word on foreign election interference, but rather a piece of the puzzle in studying the issue.

    While Rosenberg’s report this week concluded there were interference attempts in the 2021 election, it also stated a panel designed to flag interference “did not detect foreign interference that threatened Canada's ability to have free and fair elections.â€

    But amid allegations of foreign election interference in recent media reports, Opposition MPs on a Parliamentary committee voted this week on a motion to call on the federal government to hold a national public inquiry.

    Top federal officials told the Procedure and House Affairs Committee last week that the last two federal elections were not compromised by foreign actors, nor were there spikes in interference during those campaigns.

    Rosenberg said he’s been following the debate on whether or not to hold an inquiry, and he thinks regardless of the final word on that issue, it’s important the government continue to pursue mechanisms to combat foreign interference.

    “But I would also say that it's important to think through what is the scope of the public inquiry, and I wouldn't want the public inquiry to be an excuse not to continue to do the forward-looking work that needs to be done to deal with the threat, which is changing,†he said.

    Rosenberg also answered questions from Kapelos about a donation from a Chinese businessman to the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation seven years ago while he was CEO of that organization.

    Reports of the donation have led to criticisms from some elected officials, including Bloc Quebecois leader Yves-Francois Blanchet, who said this week Rosenberg has a “deficit of credibility.â€

    Rosenberg said if he were in the situation today, he would not have accepted the donation.

    “I think there would have been a different decision made for sure,†he said.

    The Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation announced this week it would be refunding the $200,000 donation.

    This transcript of Rosenberg’s interview with Vassy Kapelos for Sunday's episode of CTV's Question Period has been edited for length and clarity.

    -------------------------------

    Vassy Kapelos: I wanted to start on what has formed the substance of some of the criticism of your report, and you yourself from the Opposition, involving your time at the Trudeau Foundation. You headed up that foundation during the time that a Chinese businessman who has ties to the Chinese government made a $200,000 donation. This week the foundation returned that donation. The leader of the Bloc Quebecois, for example, says because of your work there, because of that involvement, you have a deficiency of credibility. How do you respond to that?

    Morris Rosenberg: “I have a number of things to say about it. First of all, I'd say I have worked in a 34-year career in government that was split between working for Liberal governments and Conservative governments. I was a deputy minister for 17 years, under first the Liberals and then the Conservatives. The last seven years of my career at health and foreign affairs were under the Harper government, and I've never belonged to a political party, I'm kind of what the Americans would call an independent.

    You have to understand the Trudeau Foundation is named after Pierre Elliot Trudeau, but it is an independent, non-partisan body, and it’s had on its board of directors, and as part of its membership, people from all political stripes: Liberals, NDP, and Conservatives. Because it's an independent body, the way I saw my role was to take decisions on programming and decisions on fundraising that were the foundation's decisions, that didn't consult with the Government of Canada at all. And when I got there, there already had been discussions with these two Chinese businessmen and with the University of Montreal about a donation that would be split about 80/20: 80 per cent to the University of Montreal and 20 per cent to the foundation. And, you know, at that point, I had no reason to think that there was anything untoward about it. These donations were for putting on conferences. We were also aware that one of these businessmen had also given a donation to the University of Toronto medical school a little while earlier.

    When the announcement was made, it was made without any coordination with the federal government. Now, the Globe and Mail published a report this week that a source from CSIS says that there had been information that they had, there were conversations between a Chinese consular official and one of these businessmen, and the Chinese consular official saying that he ought to donate to the Trudeau Foundation. I had never heard of that, it was first that I read of it (in the Globe and Mail). We were never informed, if anybody had any information that there was something untoward about this, I wasn't informed about it.

    The other thing I would say is that you have to look a little bit at the historical context. So put yourself back in 2015-2016, when the Canadian attitude about the relationship with China was very different, very hopeful, and much more positive and trusting. There were gifts to educational institutions, there were collaborations between Canadian research institutions and Chinese institutions. If you fast-forward to the last couple of years, there's been a kind of steady deterioration in that relationship for a number of issues: the failure to get a free trade agreement, what happened with the hostage diplomacy and the two Michaels, and other things that I think have caused Canadians to be warier, more skeptical about the motivation of the Chinese government. Also consider that the hold that the Chinese Communist Party has on its citizens is not like the relationship between citizens and government in this country. So had we been there today, would the same thing have happened? I doubt it.

    Kapelos: With the information we have now, and what's transpired in the years since, do you think you would have made a different decision?

    Rosenberg: “I think I would have. I think there would have been a different decision made for sure.â€

    Kapelos: And do you think the foundation made the right decision this week in returning that money?

    Rosenberg: “You'd have to ask the foundation. It sounds like the right decision, but I have not been privy to their decision making on this.â€

    Kapelos: Before I move on to the report, do you understand the criticism or the timing of this, as it all bleeds together? A month ago if this happened, your report was released, it wouldn't be against the backdrop of everything people have read in The Globe and Mail in the last two weeks. Do you understand how your credibility is called into question, or the report’s credibility, based on the kinds of stuff people have been reading?

    Rosenberg: “Yeah, I understand, but I’d go back and reiterate again: I worked for that foundation for four years, I worked there on the assumption that although it was named for Pierre Elliott Trudeau, it's not part of the government. It is an independent, non-partisan foundation. I have always conducted myself in a non-partisan way and that's how I conducted myself there.

    And then you're looking at a donation, at that time, for conferences, not a donation that on its face had anything to do with politics. Maybe we were naive back then, but I think and then when I was offered this contract by the Privy Council Office in the summer to look at one particular and quite technical aspect of preparation for elections, I didn't think there was an issue.

    Kapelos: Let's get to what you were looking at there. It is a very specific review that you conducted on the work of the panel that essentially is supposed to tell Canadians: ‘hey, there is a problem with interference, and it's a problem because it's compromised the integrity of the election’. They haven't done so because they didn't feel that was the case. And you reiterated that's the conclusion they arrived at through your report. And yet Canadians right now, overwhelmingly, two polls this week have shown us — including one done for Â鶹ӰÊÓ from Nanos Research — Canadians are really worried about what they're reading, despite the conclusion that panel reached, which was, as I said, communicated through your report. Are you sympathetic to those worries right now?

    Rosenberg: “You know, given the information that's been in the media in the last couple of weeks — information that I wasn't privy to when I was doing my report — and I can't comment on the veracity of the information, it is leaked information, and I don't know if we're ever going to get to the bottom of that, but I understand the concerns of Canadians. I guess the irony is that one of the goals of foreign interference is to undermine the confidence of Canadians in our democratic institutions, and that seems to have succeeded. Confidence of Canadians in our democratic institutions, if you look at the Angus Reid poll, and you mentioned there's a Nanos poll out also, that has somewhere between two thirds and 70 per cent of people worried about this, it raises an issue, and the issue is going to have to be addressed in some way.

    Kapelos: When you say “in some way,†the government has pointed to mechanisms already in place as a means of doing that, including the conclusions as telegraphed through your report that the integrity of the election was not compromised in 2021, or the one before it in 2019 through a different report. Do you see a purpose for something that goes beyond that?

    Rosenberg: “Yeah, I mean, I think at this point, consideration needs to be given to doing something else. I've been out of the country, but I have been reading, there has been a lot of debate among people that I know well, some of whom are advocating very strongly for a public inquiry, some of whom are saying that a public inquiry actually will not do the trick. Those who are against the public inquiry are saying that a public inquiry takes a long time to get started, it takes a long time before it'll be wrapped up, it'll be likely after the next election that something like that is finalized, and recommendations are out. And then it takes a number of years to implement recommendations. And then, of course, there's the problem of how to deal with sensitive national security, classified information that can't be treated in a public way, and would reduce the ability for the public to understand what's going on.

    Now, that's not a completely insurmountable problem. There have been other precedents in the past of bringing in respected, retired judges who have security clearances, who could at least get the documents even if they didn't fully explain what they were. So it's an option that I think needs to be on the table.

    But I would also say that it's important to think through what is the scope of the public inquiry, and I wouldn't want the public inquiry to be an excuse not to continue to do the forward-looking work that needs to be done to deal with the threat, which is changing. The situation is very different today than it was in 2019 when the protocol was put in place. The protocol was put in place, I think, in reaction, to a large extent, to what happened in the United States in 2016, with wide scale Russian interference. The focus was around the actual election period, and the panel of non-partisan public servants is meant to serve during the caretaker period. What we heard from CSIS and the Canadian security establishment is that some of the activities that are undertaken by foreign governments in attempting to influence events in Canada are not simply taking place during the writ period.

    If you're talking about threatening diaspora communities, or trying to secure people to act as proxies, for foreign governments, those things are taking place long before elections occur. The focus can't simply be on the caretaker period. It needs to be an all-inclusive approach of vigilance all the time.

    Now, the government has put in place in 2019 with some amendments, a plan to protect Canadian democracy that has other elements to it than just the protocol, including better education of the media and of citizens, shoring up our cyber defenses, engaging more with civil society actors, engaging with social media companies. And I think that's all good, but I think just as the protocol is subject to a regular review after each election, each of those elements really needs to be subject to a regular review after every election as well. Because the game keeps evolving: what the threat is today is not necessarily going to be what the threat looks like tomorrow. The threat actors today will be different than those tomorrow. And I would add that the issue of artificial intelligence, which is coming on very quickly, is going to complicate that a whole lot.

    Kapelos: I sense from what I'm hearing from you, and if I'm reading between the lines, you do think that there are other things the government could be doing, could be pursuing right now, to combat the threat of interference.

    Rosenberg: “Yes, I think it has to, and I don't think — whatever happens with whether there's a public inquiry or not — it should not take away from the sense of urgency that the government should have about continuing to work on this.

    And I'd mentioned one other thing. This is perhaps a bit out of left field, but not really. There were two studies done this past year, one by CIGI, the Canadian Centre for International Governance Innovation, and by the University of Ottawa, at the school of Public and International Affairs on national security. Both studies said we have had a kind of a charmed life in Canada. We have only one border, we have oceans on all sides, and we haven't taken national security all that seriously. The world is changing significantly. Election interference is one element of that, but it's time, I think, for governments in Canada to expend more political capital and more resources on this issue, and in particular, in relation to the issue of election interference.

    I saw that the government is now looking at the possibility of a foreign influence registry, as the Americans and the Australians have done. And I also think there have been calls for this in both of these reports, to do a review of the CSIS Act to ensure that the mechanisms are in place to deal with an evolving set of threats.

    Kapelos: If I could leave our conversation on this: is it fair to say you don't think your report is the final word on this?

    Rosenberg: “The final word? No. I mean, I think my report is dealing with an aspect of this. It's dealing with the protocol. If you look at the recommendations in my report, I make 16 recommendations that deal with everything from better communications, earlier communications, to improvements to the composition of the panel, the preparedness of the panel, its ability to work with civil society actors, better relations with political parties, briefings for parliamentarians, even if they're non-classified, and not just for Canadian federal parliamentarians, but for provincial representatives and municipal council members, because interference is happening all over the place. So, as I say, there are a bunch of recommendations about the protocol, including some recommendations around the threshold, and whether the threshold for having an announcement can be clarified, because there is a bit of confusion in there. There seem to be kind of three separate sets of criteria that don't all jive, one of them being you have to show impact. Well, it's almost impossible to show impact on something like this. And I think we need to pull back a little bit and maybe look at impact or potential impact as one factor, but that isn't necessarily determinative.

    The other issue, which I think has gotten a lot of attention, is whether there should be an opportunity for an announcement for interference that isn't going to affect the entire election, but that may have an impact on a particular riding or on a particular ethnic community, for example. I don't make a recommendation on this, so much as a recommendation to study it, because if this happens, and you've got members of an ethnic community that are being fed disinformation, or they're being intimidated into not voting, well, they're losing their democratic franchise, and I think a serious look has to be had at that.

    There are people on the other side of this who would say when the protocol was announced, it was very clear that it was a very, very high threshold. The minister in 2019, who announced that at the time, said we hope it will never have to be used, and there's a concern that the very announcement itself could have the unintended effect of affecting confidence in the election. So this is a discussion that has to take place. I didn't feel it was my place to make a firm recommendation on this, because I think this will need to be discussed with the political parties and with the security agencies. I think if there is going to be what I would call a below-the-threshold announcement for smaller incursions, it probably shouldn't be the panel that makes the announcement, it probably should be the security agencies, and it's not been the habit of Canadian security agencies to do that.

    Kapelos: No, it has not. Not yet anyway. Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Rosenberg, pleasure to have you here.

    Rosenberg: “Thank you.â€

    With files from CTV's Question Period Senior Producer Stephanie Ha and CTVNews.ca's Senior Digital Parliamentary Reporter Rachel Aiello

    IN DEPTH

    Opinion

    opinion

    opinion Don Martin: Gusher of Liberal spending won't put out the fire in this dumpster

    A Hail Mary rehash of the greatest hits from the Trudeau government’s three-week travelling pony-show, the 2024 federal budget takes aim at reversing the party’s popularity plunge in the under-40 set, writes political columnist Don Martin. But will it work before the next election?

    opinion

    opinion Don Martin: How a beer break may have doomed the carbon tax hike

    When the Liberal government chopped a planned beer excise tax hike to two per cent from 4.5 per cent and froze future increases until after the next election, says political columnist Don Martin, it almost guaranteed a similar carbon tax move in the offing.

    CTVNews.ca Top Stories

    The union representing some 1,200 dockworkers at the Port of Montreal has overwhelmingly rejected a deal with their employers association.

    A man who was critically injured in a police-involved shooting in Hamilton late Sunday afternoon has died in hospital, says the province’s police watchdog.

    Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced voters in Cloverdale—Langley City will pick their next member of Parliament on Dec. 16.

    Canada

    • The union representing some 1,200 dockworkers at the Port of Montreal has overwhelmingly rejected a deal with their employers association.

    • A man who was critically injured in a police-involved shooting in Hamilton late Sunday afternoon has died in hospital, says the province’s police watchdog.

    • Nova Scotia's New Democratic Party says a candidate criticized by the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs for "troubling" and "damaging" social media posts is no longer running for the party in the Nov. 26 general election.

    World

    Politics

    • Murray Sinclair’s family members say the late justice and senator has been laid to rest according to his wishes.

    • Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced voters in Cloverdale—Langley City will pick their next member of Parliament on Dec. 16.

    Health

    • Researchers say taking a peek inside a person's brain is as difficult as understanding the universe or discovering the ocean in its entirety.

    • B.C. health officials say they have detected Canada's first-ever case of H5 avian influenza in a human.

    Sci-Tech

    Entertainment

    Business

    • Bitcoin hits US$80K. Why Trump is boosting crypto

      Bitcoin on Sunday hit a new record above US$80,000. The world’s largest cryptocurrency surged in the run-up to Tuesday’s US presidential election, rose sharply immediately on election night after it became clear Donald Trump would win and has continued rising in the days since his victory.

    • Contract negotiations resume today in Vancouver in a labour dispute that has paralyzed container cargo shipping at British Columbia's ports since Monday.

    Lifestyle

    Sports

    Autos

    Local Spotlight

    For the second year in a row, the ‘Gift-a-Family’ campaign is hoping to make the holidays happier for children and families in need throughout Barrie.

    Some of the most prolific photographers behind CTV Skywatch Pics of the Day use the medium for fun, therapy, and connection.

    A young family from Codroy Valley, N.L., is happy to be on land and resting with their newborn daughter, Miley, after an overwhelming, yet exciting experience at sea.

    As Connor Nijsse prepared to remove some old drywall during his garage renovation, he feared the worst.

    A group of women in Chester, N.S., has been busy on the weekends making quilts – not for themselves, but for those in need.

    A Vancouver artist whose streetside singing led to a chance encounter with one of the world's biggest musicians is encouraging aspiring performers to try their hand at busking.

    Ten-thousand hand-knit poppies were taken from the Sanctuary Arts Centre and displayed on the fence surrounding the Dartmouth Cenotaph on Monday.

    A Vancouver man is saying goodbye to his nine-to-five and embarking on a road trip from the Canadian Arctic to Antarctica.

    • Weather watchers were treated to an exceptionally rare display on Friday evening as rare cloud formations filled Vancouver skies.

    • For some shoppers it was Nov. 1, but for others the first hints of Christmas - saccharine treats, festive-fragranced candles and gaudily wrapped gift sets - were being noticed in stores long before the final Halloween decor had been cleared.

    • Thousands of people are expected to gather in downtown Vancouver on Monday to observe the city’s 100th Remembrance Day ceremony.

    • A man who was critically injured in a police-involved shooting in Hamilton late Sunday afternoon has died in hospital, says the province’s police watchdog.

    • Patrons were inside a movie theatre when a suspect fired bullets at the business’ doors on Saturday night, before the cinema was shot at again hours later in a second incident, police say.

    • With Remembrance Day on Monday, there will be several events honouring armed forces members who died in the line of duty.

    • A pair of 105-mm howitzers bark constantly as they turn plywood tank targets into kindling kilometres away on the windswept landscape of one of Canada's largest military bases.

    • Two semis were among the vehicles involved in a multi-vehicle crash that brought westbound traffic along Stoney Trail Northwest to a standstill on Sunday.

    • More than 700 people danced, ate, and sang to celebrate Diwali Saturday night at the Genesis Centre in northeast Calgary.

    • CTVNewsOttawa.ca looks at Remembrance Day ceremonies in Ottawa.

    • After months of controversy surrounding a dog park in Ottawa's west end, a solution has been reached to divide the park in half.

    • CTVNewsOttawa.ca looks at what's open and closed in Ottawa on Remembrance Day.

    • The union representing some 1,200 dockworkers at the Port of Montreal has overwhelmingly rejected a deal with their employers association.

    • Despite some opposition, a motion was passed at the party’s convention in Levis, Que. over the weekend to create a Quebec constitution.

    • The West Island Mission hosted its second food drive Sunday amid increasing demand.

    • Monday is Remembrance Day, a time to honour armed forces members who have died in the line of duty.

    • Boasting 2,300 square metres of skating space at its new location, Edmonton's Rollers Roller Rink believes it is the largest in Canada.

    • A woman is dead after a driver crashed a truck through a Boston Pizza in Fort McMurray late Saturday morning.

    • Here’s what’s opened and closed across the Maritimes on Remembrance Day.

    • Two nephews of the beloved Harry R. Hamilton share stories about his life and legacy.

    • A pillar in Canada’s history was honoured in Winnipeg Sunday afternoon, with thousands showing up to pay tribute to the life and legacy of the late Murray Sinclair.

    • Winnipeg police have identified two men involved in a stabbing incident earlier this week.

    • The Winnipeg Blue Bombers whipped the Saskatchewan Roughriders 38-22 in Saturday's CFL West Division final to earn their fifth consecutive trip to the Grey Cup.

    • Regina author Valerie Crowther is celebrating the release of her book ‘War Letters: Linking Lives in the Second World War.’

    • It was a somber day at Mosaic Stadium as members of the Saskatchewan Roughriders officially cleaned out their stalls and closed the book on the 2024 season.

    • Twilight Tech Arcade, an entertainment location specializing in retro gaming, is closing its doors for the foreseeable future.

    • A man has been charged after a stabbing at an apartment building in Kitchener.

    • The Guelph Police Service is putting out a warning after two deaths in the downtown area.

    • Two new tributes to Canada’s veterans have been unveiled at the Elmira Cenotaph.

    • Saskatchewan RCMP are searching for a suspect after a man was seriously injured in a farm-related incident in Montreal Lake.

    • It was a somber day at Mosaic Stadium as members of the Saskatchewan Roughriders officially cleaned out their stalls and closed the book on the 2024 season.

    • The Regina Rams claimed the Hardy Cup after a hard fought battle against the Saskatoon Huskies 19-14 on Saturday in the first all Saskatchewan U-Sports western conference final since 2002.

    • CTVNewsNorthernOntario.ca is livestreaming the annual Remembrance Day ceremony at the Sudbury Community Arena starting Monday at 10:30 a.m.

    • Police have arrested a 15-year-old in connection with a break-in and $50,000 in damage done to the Centennial Arena in Elliot Lake in September.

    • On Friday, the Sarnia Police Service (SPS) received a report of an alleged abduction in the area of Kathleen Avenue and Walnut Avenue.

    • Three people were taken to hospital after a plane crashed in the Municipality of Southwest Middlesex.

    • London Knights Logan Hawery and Caleb Mitchell are returning from the U17 World Hockey Challenge with gold medals around their necks.

    • A group of former NHL players faced off against York Regional Police officers in Newmarket Sunday afternoon to raise funds for Special Olympics programs across the province.

    • A driver is facing multiple charges after a multi-vehicle collision on Highway 400 early Sunday morning.

    • The agreed statement of facts was read to the court on Friday in the case of Alex Williams, the 24-year-old jail guard charged last fall with smuggling cannabis and tobacco into Central North Correctional Centre in Penetanguishene.

    • For Gene Lotz, the spark of curiosity to delve into the history of those who served in war only began when the answers became difficult to find.

    • One person has been arrested after Chatham-Kent Police Service (CKPS) received multiple complaints about an alleged drunk driver.

    • An individual is dead following a collision involving a motorcycle in Kingsville.

    • Environment Canada says heavy rain and winds could cause power outages on Vancouver Island as an "intense" storm system is set to hit the B.C. coast Sunday.

    • Six deer were struck by vehicles in six different locations in a six-hour period on B.C. highways on Saturday, according to the transportation ministry.

    • The union for locked-out port workers in British Columbia says the BC Maritime Employers Association cut off talks in less than an hour Saturday, refusing to budge on a final offer that the union has so far rejected.

    • The emergency department at South Okanagan General Hospital in Oliver, B.C., will be closed for 31 hours this weekend, the second such closure in a week and the third since the start of November.

    • Police in Kamloops, B.C., are reminding parents and guardians to check their children's Halloween candy after receiving a report of a mother finding a razor blade in one of her daughter's treats.

    • More than two years after Alannah Brown and Douglas Barker were found dead north of Penticton, police are asking for help identifying a vehicle they believe was associated with the crime.

    • The Southern Alberta Recreation Association is officially announcing the Town of Taber as next year’s host for the Southern Alberta Summer Games.

    • The Lethbridge Hurricanes broke open a close game with three goals in the first two minutes of the third period as they defeated the Warriors 7-3 in a game played Friday night in Moose Jaw.

    • There might not a lot snow just yet, but many southern Albertans are still itching to get outdoors.

    • Police have arrested a 15-year-old in connection with a break-in and $50,000 in damage done to the Centennial Arena in Elliot Lake in September.

    • Mayors of the five largest cities in northern Ontario met in North Bay the last two days to discuss a range of critical issues impacting their cities and the region.

    • Residents in the Sault expressed concerns ranging from vandalism to privacy invasions during recent consultations on the city's plan to install automated speed enforcement cameras.

    N.L.

    Stay Connected
    Follow Â鶹ӰÊÓ